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Oak Island Treasure • View topic - Rennes le Chateau

Rennes le Chateau

The Oak Island Money Pit in the media - news, press releases, tv and online.
Have you come across an interesting link? This is the place to share it.

Moderators: Jo, admiralbenbow

Postby PAUL HAWKINS on Wed May 12, 2004 2:18 pm

Cerris ~ Here we go again ~ same old silly games.

Anyway in answer to your series of questions ~

1) Are you claiming that Mr Wilkins drew his two 'Mar Del' maps based on the island (you put it's picture on pwillies web site) located off the coast of Cornwall? if so what PROOF have you of that statement please?
Yes ~ why not allow people to make up their own minds. As far as proof is concerned ~ I have as much proof as you have??? I explain why I believe St. Georges Island is the inspiration and basis of Wilkins creations on this page of my web site http://www.captainkidd.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SKELETON1.htm

2) Is this island depicted not in fact a different one that (according to your Email) YOU planned to investigate said to have pirate tunnels please?
Yes ~ phew! ~ I thought you would never get it!

3) Do you remember - you sent me the SAME ISLAND PICTURE to discribe this new 'tunneled' island as an attachment please?
I can't honestly remember. I have a feeling you are confusing or misinterpretating previous communications. However, the use of phrases such as "Pirate Tunnels" or "Tunneled Island" is simply not in my vocabulary. These are terms that I would never have used to describe my work. If I have used these phrases in the past ~ it would have been to describe other peoples work.

My Operations Director on my project was also involved with a leading American University to GPR survey St. George's Island off the coast of Cornwall. They conducted their survey in the Summer of 2003. They discovered that the island was riddled with underground workings, and plan to continue their activities later this year. After he had shown me a modern map of the island, it was then that I put 2 and 2 together and realized that this island could also be the basis of Wilkins Skeleton Island maps. The outline shape of the island, when compared to Wilkins' creations is too close to be coincidental, especially when we know that Wilkins often visited Cornwall for his pirate research/inspiration, and the island has always been linked with legendary pirate activity (as all off shore islands around the coast of Cornwall are).

3) Is this not the SAME ISLAND PICTURE that you once showed on your website (now removed) discribed as the INDIAN OCEAN CORAL ATOLL please?
No

4) Which genine Kidd maps are you compairing your coral atoll to please?
As shown on my web site ~ http://www.captainkidd.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

5) If this Key Map island were drawn (by Kidd) free hand from memory without an areoplane how do you know it matches your coral atoll please?
Correct ~ they didn’t have aeroplanes in the 17th Century. I have actually flown over the site, which lies at the exact location indicated by the decipherment of the Palmer maps and is identical in outline shape to the island depicted on the maps. The island also has other key identification features, which are too remarkable to be coincidental.

Please be aware that the Palmer maps were NOT drawn by the same person. Avery drew the first map, which Kidd took with him to locate Avery’s island, and the second map (geometric template) was drawn by Kidd to show Kidd’s relocation site of Avery’s treasure on the same island.

6) Are you saying there does not have to be a match or any treasure located to constitute success please?
There are two discoveries to be made here ~ the island site itself, and whatever may or may not be concealed on the island site. We will obviously not know if anything was concealed on the island until the site has been excavated ~ a bit like Oak Island? Success is not measured by recovery value. There’s more to life!


7) As you have claimed: "The people who have tried to force a conjectural connection with Kidd to Oak Island has always relied on the (now known to be faked) series of Wilkins maps." Will you now for the viewers information NAME any of these 'people' who have used fake Mar Del maps to force a Kidd and Oak Island connection please?
You, GB, Hedden ~ for starters. If you need reminding of your complete adherance to Wilkins and his (I believe) faked maps ~ take a look back at the old forum, where you go to great lengths in your promotion and defence of the Wilkins maps ~ or have you changed your stance again, as the seasons change?
http://pub209.ezboard.com/foakislandtreasurefrm2.showMessage?topicID=20.topic


8) As you have claimed to have made break through useing trigonometry to find Kidds cache site can you tell the viewers please how long Kidds (Key map) island is, one mile? ten? fifty? a hundred? how do you know the answer please?
I have not made a break through as you describe. All I have done is identify, what I believe, is the trigonometric system employed by the author of the map (Kidd?) to hide the location of his cache site. The island itself is approximately 2.5 miles long ~ measuring on a North South axis. The measurement was made using scientific instrumentation by a professional space imagery processing company. I have since flown over the site myself and can confirm its approximate dimensions.

9) The shape of the island is obviously Kidd's guess work, it then logically follows that the various alignments are totally inacurate and various reference points may even have been fabricated, how do you therefore KNOW your three triangle solution on your web site is correct please?
The shape of the actual island site is IDENTICAL to its portrayal on the Palmer maps. Your use of the words “obviously” and “logically” is inappropriate, which really does underline your lack of understanding. The author (Kidd) used FOUR triangles to pinpoint the cache site ~ not three.

10) How did Kidd have a stolen item of treasure (A gold threaded Cradle lanket) in his possession that was actually plundered by AVERY ?
Because he retrieved it from Avery’s cache, using Avery’s map that Avery had given him in Boston/NY in late August 1698 ~ just before Avery set out for Ireland and Kidd for the Indian Ocean the following September.


Please remember these are ten numbered questions -- not accusations.

Will the veiwers please take note of Mr Hawkins reply.
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ERROR

Postby PAUL HAWKINS on Wed May 12, 2004 2:49 pm

I made a typo error in answer to Q10). The year should read 1696 ~ not 1698.
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RESPONSE

Postby PAUL HAWKINS on Thu May 13, 2004 5:38 pm

Cerris,

As you have seemingly taken it upon yourself to be the spokesman for all posters??? and have started this thread of questioning???

Perhaps you would like to please tell the forum …

1) What proof do you have to support your claim of knowing the complete underground system of Oak Island? ~ Please

2) What proof do you have to support your claim that you know the purpose of the Money pit? ~ Please

3) What proof do you have to support your theory that Kidd and Avery used Oak Island to deposit their Indian Ocean treasure? Please

4) What proof do you have to support your theory that the Palmer/Kidd Key map refers to Oak Island? Please

Please answer my questions ~ as I am sure the whole forum would like to know your answers. Also. please dont retard my request, which is made on behalf of all other posters, into a adolescent bout of name calling, childish taunting and provacative accusations ~ which you have accustomed yourself in the past. Please

You started this ~ I am giving you the opportunity to finish it.
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Postby cmod on Thu May 13, 2004 7:05 pm

why can't we all just get along? :)

Hawkins has replied to specific questions from Cerris which may or may not satisfy anyone on these boards. That's fine by me because he has a point of view, sticks to it and defends it.
The problem for me is if Cerris does not respond to his questions.
A true pirate would not backdown when challenged!
Cerris will claim "why should i spill my guts so someone else can reap the reward" fair enough - but from many posters point of view you seem like a guy who talks a lot and says I have the answer - just to make yourself look important - but really has nothing to back the claims up with. (which may or may not be true but we will never know)

Don't you think if you went public with your theories and something was found where and how you say it will be - you would get the credit?
Since no one in 200 years has be right yet, or at least proven right. That would make you a focal point of the Oak Island Mystery forever. Or are you afraid you'll be shot down like Mr. Hawkins is.

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More questions

Postby PAUL HAWKINS on Thu May 13, 2004 7:35 pm

Cerris,

There are more (many actually) questions that I have for you ~

As I understand your theory, Kidd and Avery is responsible for the Oak Island construction. You assert that they concealed their Indian Ocean plunder in their vault constructed on Oak Island.

Perhaps you would like to address and answer these questions ~

1) You propose on your web site that Kidd travelled to London in 1695 to seek a commission so that he could uphold an agreement he had previously made with John Avery ~ to retrieve his treasure for him from the Indian Ocean ~ so that it could be located in the vault on Oak Island which presumably had been constructed and prepared beforehand?

Why then, at the meeting with his backers in London, did Kidd beg for a commission in the Royal Navy, and only relented to accept a privateering commission when he was threatened with having his sloop Antigua impounded by His Majesties Customs? Surely, if Kidd was on the mission you proffer, the last thing he would have done would be to seek a Royal Navy commission, where his movements and activities would have been fully logged and documented. That just doesn't make sense.

2) If John Avery was the prime mover and shaker of the Oak Island construction as you infer on your web site, why in 1694, was Avery, for 3 months, just a lowly First Mate aboard the Charles, waiting to be fitted out in the port of La Corruna in Spain? Reports of the event reveal that Avery and his fellow mutineers overpowered Captain Gibson, who was drunk, and took control of the ship. This by all accounts was a spur of the moment action, because they had been waiting in port, without pay for three months for the ship to be refitted. Avery then renamed the ship the "Fancy" and headed for the Indian Ocean on a mission of piracy to seek his fame and fortune. Does this sound like the man who is responsible for the Oak Island construction?

Prior to Avery's adventure to the Indian Ocean, there is not a shred of proof that Avery and Kidd were ever in the same part of the world at the same time, let alone be partners in one of the most wonderous constructions.

I believe you have put 2 and 2 together and arrived at 56!!

Come on Cerris ~ be honest with yourself and the other posters on this forum.
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A CLEVER GAME?

Postby PAUL HAWKINS on Thu May 13, 2004 7:47 pm

cmod,

You are very observant.

Perhaps Cerris is playing the most clever game of all.

As long as he stays silent ~ for the various reasons he has given ~ he can always say, after the secret has been revealed (whenever that may be) ~ I told you so ~ I was right all the time!! A clever guy??
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Show time folks.

Postby Cerris on Fri May 14, 2004 5:27 pm

Mr Hawkins,
Regarding your response to some of my questions.

1) It is your perogative to theorize that St George's Island (shown on pwillies photo website) was the inspiration for Wilkins MAR DEL maps, just as long as you make it clear to the viewers that it is just simply your unsubstanciated theory, I mean you wouldn't wish to mislead them would you?

5) Your claim that you have flown over your 2.5 mile long Coral Atoll is not in dispute. Let me explain in really simple terms for you how your theory does not hold water. Lets suppose for the moment that the Morgan Map you have relied on is shaped like a long knee length rideing boot. Through your brilliant decipherment of a code hiden on one or more of these old maps you have flown over and located this identical riding boot shaped island. It all sounds lovely till somebody inquires how Kidd or Avery drew this rideing boot shape from ground and sea level observations -- they never had an aeroplane so unlike you they had to guess. All the Palmer/Kidd maps were drawn free hand from memory and no two are exactly alike. The Morgan map (you choose to employ in your theory) could be in reality a failed attempt to discribe a totally different shaped island than that inaccurately drawn. Therefore yes your Coral Atoll may look like the riding boot shaped Morgan Map island but it must logically be a flawed and inaccurate match, the real island could be any shape, even dare I say Oak Island. Now -- mind your blood pressure.

6) The word treasure does not actually appear on the Palmer/Kidd maps does it? what if it was just a pirates freash water hole and smugglers trading place, still success is not measured by recovery value right, let's hope the DVD's do well then.


7) You still insist in claiming that my Oak Island theory is based on the fake MAR DEL maps which it is most decidedly not , I dont need ANY maps as well you know from my many corrections of your faulse claims.
As a sideline I have tackled the Key Map mystery which (irrespective of what you say) I call the Skeleton Island Map, this is simply because it is the only one with the word skeleton on it. If you dont like it that I beleave this maps depicts Oak Island that's unfortunate for you, get over it.

You said: "Because he retrieved it (the Crandle Blanket) from Avery's cache site, using Avery's map that Avery had given him in Boston/NY in late August 1696 - just before before Avery set out for Ireland and Kidd for the Indian Ocean the following September. " Is this an polite aknowledgement of MY theory or are you claiming it all as your own now? Be advised that as you have already posted parts of my private e mail to you on this forum I feel perfectly justified in responding in kind.

Mr Cerris Francis

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An answer in to Response.

Postby Cerris on Fri May 14, 2004 6:35 pm

Mr Hawkins, sooner would I give (free of charge) all my Oak Island Revelations to David Tobias than ever again educate you further, is that response enough?

I have stated clearly that if and when we have our contracts secured I will be disclosing details (on Jo's web site) and presenting my version of what I beleave happend. When will YOU be disclosing your proven facts (that's a laugh) concerning your just announced theory regarding the secret collusion of Avery and Kidd? I wont have to wait as long as you, will you just play some evasive card -- again?

Incidently if Kidd brought the Cradle Blanket from Avery's treasure cache in the Indian Ocean where did he take the REST of Averys vaste treasure? I mean Oak Islands only a relatively short distance from Boston or New York. Perhaps he took it all back to your Coral Atoll in the Indian Ocean no pointless - or maybe - no --- then again perhaps he just brought back the Crandle Blanket -- or --oh you'l think of something right.

Oh what tangled webs we weave -- when first we practice to deceive.

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Debate

Postby PAUL HAWKINS on Sat May 15, 2004 10:47 am

Cerris,

I am more than willing to debate this with you, as long as keep the debate on a mature level, without resorting to silly name calling, childish taunts and direct personal abuse.

Geoff Bath, in a recent posting to you, very diplomatically suggested that you reflect on the way you present yourself ~ that is ~ if you want you and your hypothesis to be taken seriously by the people you are trying to impress.

As regards your latest postings, I don't know if you are being deliberately dim here, or if you really do have a problem with being able to understand the simplest of points I have put to you.

I suggest the real questions you should address are these ~

The first question to address is ~ why are there two maps of the same island? drawn in different styles, by apparently different hands? Both maps were discovered in secret compartments of furnishings, with a proven Kidd connection and provenance.

The second question to address is ~ why, in September 1696, did Kidd offer his New York recruits 60% of the value of prizes taken to join his cruise to the Indian Ocean? ~ an offer which would have been impossible to uphold if he had been faithful to the terms of his original privateering commission.

The third question to address is ~ why would Kidd carefully conceal his map, and Avery's map, in secret compartments, in items of his furniture ~ both inscribed with the date 1699 ~ AFTER he had departed the Indian Ocean in November 1698? ~ if he never intended to return at a later date?

I see you have now changed your stance yet again and declared that your hypothesis does not depend on any maps. But there again ~ in the following paragraph ~ all you write about is the maps?? I am sure we are all finding it very difficult to follow your thread of thought and line of reasoning.

You ask ~ Could two experienced seafarers have accurately mapped a small atoll just 2.5 miles long (without an aeroplane!!)? Yes of course they could ~ and they did!

If you want to know the answer to these questions, and many more ~ I suggest you take a look at this page of my web site ~
http://www.captainkidd.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SITEUPDATE.htm

Where all is revealed!!
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If youre in a deep hole - stop digging.

Postby Cerris on Sun May 16, 2004 9:56 pm

Mr Hawkins, without involving other people like Geoff, Daniel, or Tank, why not just face me here like a man.

Do you recall you made (on this forum) an unprovoked attack re my website claiming that I had made twenty historical errors purely to discredit me. Seven were attempts like now to glean secrets from me, two were conceeded as small errors. The most pleasing thing was the remaining ELEVEN points you made which were WRONG AND WERE CORRECTED BY ME SIR, that established which of us is DIM and childish.

Please correct me if I am wrong, you 'expanded' your theory to include the possible collusion between Kidd and Avery after the information was obtained from me on this forum, private e mails and my web site.

Do you deny that in private I informed you of a vital link connecting the two men and that was the Cradle Blanket stole by Avery yet brought back by Kidd. In short DID YOU USE MY DISCOVERIES AND THOUGHTS IN YOUR THEORY? a simple YES or NO will suffice.

If your answer is evasive or NO I will publish the relevant e mails on this forum, if your answer is YES there is no need to explain my refusal to educate you further.

You have made a public statement re Kidd and Avery that you may have cause to regret and I have no intention of letting you off the hook. Let us now break down what you said of your own free will and remember you did not claim it was just your THEORY, it was presented to viewers as fact.

Allow me to reiterate exactly what you said regarding how Kidd came to be in possession of an item of a pirates treasure, the afore mentioned Cradle Blanket.

You said: "Because he retrieved it from Avery cache site, using Avery's map, that he had given him in Boston/NY in late August 1696 - just before Avery set out for Ireland and Kidd for the Indian Ocean the following September."

1) "Because he retrieved it from Avery's cache site," Do you have the evidence to support this statement presented by you as fact?

2) "useing Avery's map" Do you have the evidence to support this statement presented by you as fact?

3) "that he had given him in Boston/NY" Do you have the evidence to support this statement presented by you as fact?

4) "in late August 1696 - just before Avery set out for Ireland and Kidd for the Indian Ocean the following September." Do you have the evidence to support this statement presented by you as fact?

5) If Kidd brought back the Cradle Blanket from Avery's cache where did he take Avery's great treasure? Do you have evidence to explain this?

6) You said: "Could two experianced seafarers have accurately mapped a small atoll just 2.5 miles (without an aeroplane)? Yes of course they could - and they did.

FACT 1. You cannot PROVE that they did.

FACT 2. You dont even know WHO drew them.

FACT 3. They are marked SOUTH CHINA SEA to mislead people so why not faulse coded figures?

FACT 4. Several maps were made in dissimilar styles in different hand and put in various places. You put your triangles on the KEY MAP yet compare your atoll to a totally different map called the MORGAN map and you dont even know who drew them or how accurate they were.

Face it you are getting out of your depth and you just do not have real answers. To add insult to injury you've got the unmitigated gall to ask me what I think, you made your bed mate - now sleep in it.

If I had two wishes I'd first wish for a contract, the second I wish you just start your own b****y project.

Cerris Francis.
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