Scott Wolter has it wrong

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Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby wayward on Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:21 pm

On his History Channel program, firstly he only mentioned the original founder of the 14th century New Ross site and its first promoter "Joan Hope Harris" once and only in passing, and never mentioned her name in relation to her "Holy Well", named as such by her. Next, he claimed that the name "The Cross" which he mentioned is hundreds of years old, could have come from the Cross on Templar tunics. In fact, the name "The Cross", is shortened from "Charing Cross" (I have a photo of this name on a New Ross gun emplacement) which was more than likely brought over from London either as my research shows by the Knights Templar in about 1308 (who certainly would have seen the "Queen Eleanor" cross being erected at Charing Cross) or if I am wrong, later with the arrival of English settlers. Also, my research indicates any artifacts from the Charing Cross site were moved to a site deemed more secure in the early 16th century, up the Gold River over the Nova Scotia divide of waters at Blue Mountian and to a certain site near Annapolis Basin.
I do respect Scott Wolters work, especially regarding the Kensington Runestone which I have recently started a thread on here, but when researching The Secret City of Joan Hope, he should give her all the credit she deserves. I wonder if he even read her book?
Last edited by wayward on Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby Procutus on Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:49 pm

wayward wrote:and to a certain site near Annapolis Basin.




wayward;

By chance, are you referring to Fort Anne? As I understand it, it's supposed to be the oldest settlement in Nova Scotia.


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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby wayward on Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:19 am

Procutus wrote:
wayward wrote:and to a certain site near Annapolis Basin.




wayward;

By chance, are you referring to Fort Anne? As I understand it, it's supposed to be the oldest settlement in Nova Scotia.

regards,Procutus



No, but thanks for your question Procutus, actually Port Royal was the oldest european settlement in Nova Scotia (1605), but I am not referring to any particular settlement as None of them existed during the early 16th century.
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby n4n224ccw on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:15 pm

If you'd like to know the history of New Ross, then the papers detailed at the following would be a good place to start.


http://webarchives.nsarm.gov.ns.ca/webc ... ntrolLoc=T

Type in New Ross
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby wayward on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:33 pm

n4n224ccw wrote:If you'd like to know the history of New Ross, then the papers detailed at the following would be a good place to start.


Type in New Ross



Actually a great history of New Ross is titled (of all things) "The History of New Ross" by Caroline (Broome) Leopold, which she wrote in 1966. It was sent to me in 2010 by a member of this forum who has helped me greatly in my research .
Incidently, I have two photos that show the original name of "The Cross" as "Charing Cross". The first is a photo of a World War I German field gun on a stand labeled "Charing Cross". In the second is a stone monument that states it replaces the German field gun and inscription 1914-1918 originally placed at Charing Cross by Mr. Oscar Elliott. (New Ross Historical Society 2010)
Oscar St.Clair or Sinclair Elliot who had placed that gun was born Mar.12,1857 in New Ross and died Feb.21,1952 also in New Ross.
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby n4n224ccw on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:02 pm

wayward wrote:
Actually a great history of New Ross is titled (of all things) "The History of New Ross" by Caroline (Broome) Leopold, which she wrote in 1966. It was sent to me in 2010 by a member of this forum who has helped me greatly in my research .


Then surely you know the term Cross is in reference and short for the term cross-roads and was refered to as New Ross Cross well before the placement of WWI cannon.

We merely need to read The History of Lunenburg County, 1870. Judge DesBrisay's primary source of information ..."A large part of the information here given is from a journal kept by Edward J. Ross, Esq."....the son of Captain Ross.

New Ross Cross, where the roads to Lunenburg, King's, and
Annapolis intersect each other, is fifteen miles from Chester
Basin, twenty-six miles from Kentville, and twenty-eight miles
from Windsor. " The Grant " is four miles, and the " Dutch
Settlement " ten miles, from the Basin.

You may wish to read the following post which details the roads and why it was the cross roads.

http://mailman.ednet.ns.ca/pipermail/ns ... 05684.html
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby wayward on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:36 am

n4n224ccw wrote:
wayward wrote:
Actually a great history of New Ross is titled (of all things) "The History of New Ross" by Caroline (Broome) Leopold, which she wrote in 1966. It was sent to me in 2010 by a member of this forum who has helped me greatly in my research .


Then surely you know the term Cross is in reference and short for the term cross-roads and was refered to as New Ross Cross well before the placement of WWI cannon.

We merely need to read The History of Lunenburg County, 1870. Judge DesBrisay's primary source of information ..."A large part of the information here given is from a journal kept by Edward J. Ross, Esq."....the son of Captain Ross.

New Ross Cross, where the roads to Lunenburg, King's, and
Annapolis intersect each other, is fifteen miles from Chester
Basin, twenty-six miles from Kentville, and twenty-eight miles
from Windsor. " The Grant " is four miles, and the " Dutch
Settlement " ten miles, from the Basin.

You may wish to read the following post which details the roads and why it was the cross roads.




Yeah, I know it was a cross roads, but it seems you cherry picked your sources.

Caroline Leopold in describing her own sources writes: "The story of the settlement of New Ross is compiled in part from the 'History of the County of Lunenburg' by M.B. DesBrisay and from 'A History of Sherwood' by Herman D. Levy". Also: "A large part of the information here given is from a journal kept by Edward J. Ross, Esq, who died at New Ross, April 6,1899 aged seventy eight yrs."
Mrs. Leopold writes the following statements in the next few pages, and btw the Leopolds are listed among the first settlers of the area.

" Extent of New Ross: It embraces the smaller communities of Forties, Leville, Glengarry, and Seffernville, in addition to the central CHARING CROSS."

"CHARING CROSS, the central section of New Ross recieved its name in the early days of the settlement of Sherbrooke. The name is usually shortened to The Cross."

In an article within "The Southshore Now" dated June 23,1999, by Mill Road resident Bob Rafuse: "Charing Cross is named after an old Railroad station in England".

Also interesting is the words on the 1914 machine gun stand which certainly predates the gun, and reads simply, "CHARING CROSS".

And the monument that replaces it reads "originally placed at CHARING CROSS"

It would seem from that resident Oscar Sinclair Elliott who was born in 1857 and placed the gun, freely accepted that name.

It should also be mentioned that the "Charing Cross" in London (a block down the street from the London Templar headquarters) was called by many as simply "The Cross".
Last edited by wayward on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby wayward on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:37 am

.
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby n4n224ccw on Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:54 pm

wayward wrote:
Yeah, I know it was a cross roads, but it seems you cherry picked your sources.



Yes, primary source documents which date back to the earliest history. As Judge DesBrisay wrote: “New Ross Cross, the intersection of…”

There are many places in Nova Scotia where the suffix cross was added into the name due to cross roads intersecting the community, including two just down the road from New Ross.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/plac ... lace-Names

wayward wrote:" Extent of New Ross: It embraces the smaller communities of Forties, Leville, Glengarry, and Seffernville, in addition to the central CHARING CROSS."


Nothing more than using a recent nickname to identify the location

wayward wrote:"CHARING CROSS, the central section of New Ross recieved its name in the early days of the settlement of Sherbrooke. The name is usually shortened to The Cross."


That statement is totally untrue, unless of course a source dating to the period says otherwise.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/plac ... asp?ID=480

Likewise, the central section of New Ross was (before the cross roads) called Rosebank after the homestead of Capt Ross. This is reflected in the attached image. Talk about Holy Grail association batman!!!

http://museum.gov.ns.ca/rfm/en/home/abo ... sfarm.aspx


wayward wrote:In an article within "The Southshore Now" dated June 23,1999, by Mill Road resident Bob Rafuse: "Charing Cross is named after an old Railroad station in England".


No doubt about an external association to the UK; however, Charing Cross adoption is modern.

wayward wrote:Also interesting is the words on the 1914 machine gun stand which certainly predates the gun, and reads simply, "CHARING CROSS".

And the monument that replaces it reads "originally placed at CHARING CROSS"

It would seem from that resident Oscar Sinclair Elliott who was born in 1857 and placed the gun, freely accepted that name.


I think this is the origins to when Charing Cross came into the vocabulary associated with New Ross and nothing more than an interesting souvenir brought home from abroad due to the word Cross and of course the cross roads.

How do you know the plaque predates the gun and not contemporary to the gun?

John Masters got it right…”… and the town is known to locals as "The Cross," supposedly after Charing Cross in London. But maybe that's just what they tell outsiders.”
http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2012 ... ova-scotia

I do wonder when the term Charing Cross (in association to New Ross) can first be found to exist in print.
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new ross.JPG
new ross.JPG (57.23 KiB) Viewed 15315 times
Last edited by n4n224ccw on Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scott Wolter has it wrong

Postby n4n224ccw on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:55 pm

Just a few more examples of Rosebank which I thought to dig up and share.

No mention of Charing Cross.
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william mackay - belchers map 1855.JPG
william mackay - belchers map 1855.JPG (27.47 KiB) Viewed 15194 times
alexander keith johnston 1861.JPG
alexander keith johnston 1861.JPG (29.98 KiB) Viewed 15157 times
alexander keith johnston 1857.JPG
alexander keith johnston 1857.JPG (25 KiB) Viewed 15168 times
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