Charing Cross

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Re: Charing Cross

Postby n4n224ccw on Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:05 pm

OPTION B from above is valid.

WHOI clearly detailed their source of material to test. These samples came from the island and not from the Smithsonian.

The issues with the Smithsonian conclusions are mentioned elsewhere in this forum, basically only the Smithsonian experts could identify the material while many of their contemporary counter-parts could not.

The RV Harris fond at our Nova Scotia Archives and Records Management contain a great deal of letters between RV and many institutions in his attempt to identify the material. On two different occasions and almost 30 years apart, only the Smithsonian concluded coconut, every other attempt between these dates failed to identify the material as coconut palm related.

WHOI did not have the same samples furnished to the Smithsonian and did not test those samples.

WHOI was unable to positively identify their material as coconut palm related, even with modern day expert examination under scanning electron microscopes.

We are left with only a false assumption of linking Smithsonian's unconfirmed identification with WHOI dating.

Again, there is not a single sample positively identified as originating from a coconut palm AND dated. Identification of course means to imply modern day means of analysis, such as SEM structure comparison or as you suggest DNA.

It would be very nice to eventually put this issue to rest with positive identification and dating on the SAME fibre. Until this happens, it is premature to draw any conclusion on material type and date.

BTW, Spanish grass/west Indies grass/ 'coconut' fibre and sugar cane were not the only foreign material to come from the pit, merely the material mentioned by name. Regardless of grass confusion, sugar cane identification seems less likely confused with other materials.

Of particular interest is for raw sugar cane being milled in Halifax starting in about 1818 (if not earlier). There exists a reasonable chance for a local expert to draw a comparison between MP samples and raw samples found in Halifax.
The post Revolutionary history of Oak Island is a complex web of lies and partial truths to sort through.

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Re: Charing Cross

Postby wayward on Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:52 am

n4n224ccw wrote:
WHOI was unable to positively identify their material as coconut palm related, even with modern day expert examination under scanning electron microscopes.
Again, there is not a single sample positively identified as originating from a coconut palm AND dated. Identification of course means to imply modern day means of analysis, such as SEM structure comparison or as you suggest DNA.
It would be very nice to eventually put this issue to rest with positive identification and dating on the SAME fibre. Until this happens, it is premature to draw any conclusion on material type and date.



As this seems to be an important link to any mystery of Oak Island, I would like to again ask if any of the original material called "coconut fibre" is available for further testing? A DNA test of the fibre as I suggested and you seconded, along with a dating of the same sample would, as you say, "put this issue to rest". The only conclusion I can come to of why this was not done is that the pirate theorists were fully satisfied that the mention of coconut fibres would have evidenced a Caribbean link, which as we know would not necessarily be true, depending on the dating.
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Re: Charing Cross

Postby n4n224ccw on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:05 am

The material furnished to WHOI by Dan Henskee can still be found below the beach; however, it is not know if this material is of the same type provided to the Smithsonian or the same type found in the MP.

Fortunately we do have some of RV Harris' beach sample which can be still be found in Halifax. Our Maritime Museum of the Atlantic and our NSARM both have small quantities.

You may wish to obtain the following reference to read George's complete writing about Oak Island.

George Young's "Ancient People's and Modern Ghosts, 1980, Lunenburg County Print Ltd, ISBN 0-920454-07-0" page 41.

9. Regarding fibrous materials referred to by earlier writers as "coconut fibre", I have samples of materials taken from the Clevlands Beach in Queensland which, when viewed alongside a sample of the material at the Provincial Archives in Halifax reported to be "the real thing", I see no or very little difference, when taking age and dryness into consideration. I am therefore of the opinion, it is of local origins.


Clevlands Beach is located in St Margarets Bay. The material is easily obtained and makes for an easy comparison as George notes. Taking this one step further, a sample coming from the same spot as WHOI's sample and the Cleveland Beach sample are identical under a SEM.

While George is not an expert, his observations were confirmed....which takes us back to needing a single sample positively identified as part of the coconut palm with a confirmed date.

With all of that said, there are some interesting flora and fauna related observations in old photographs and a few which can still be observed today; however that is getting off topic for this reply.


http://www.amazon.ca/ANCIENT-PEOPLES-AN ... 0920454070
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Re: Charing Cross

Postby DJ King on Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:13 am

Hi n4n,
By SEM do you mean a Scanning Electron Microscope? If so, then you are saying an examination under one of the most powerful microscopes shows no difference between the local vegetable matter from St Margarets Bay and the so-called coconut husk material taken from Oak Island by Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. Ergo, the alleged coconut material from Oak Island is not necessarily coconut at all, but may be some kind of unidentified vegetable matter seemingly native to Nova Scotia? Please correct me if I have misunderstood.
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Re: Charing Cross

Postby wayward on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:18 pm

n4n224ccw wrote:

Perhaps the Knights Templar deposited their treasure on your island west of Scotland and which still waits for a modern day sleuth to come along and to discover it.

Your knowledge of events in England, Ireland, and Scotland with respect to Templar arrests seems to come from popular myth, rather than from archival records such as those summarized by Burgtorf, Crawford, and Nicholson. 'Processus factus contra Templarios in Scotia, 1309' alone dispels all of the modern day cult like beliefs of events in Scotland.



With the coconut fibre discussion having bombed out, at least temporarily, I thought I would answer a few of your questions on this subject.

Most of the Templar addicts have the orders vessels escaping LaRochelle sometime within a two day period prior to the October 13, 1307 "surprise" :wink: arrests. There is creditable evidence that de Molay knew of the impending arrests at least 30 days earlier. I premise these ships left LaRochelle nearly 30 days before the arrests under orders from de Molay himself. Of course not all of them went to Scotland, some of them, as we both know sailed to Portugal
You mentioned that Templars arriving in Scotland would be arrested on the spot, but by my figuring they would have arrived in the Western Isles even before the arrests in France took place. As for events in the Western Isles, Somerled, the Lord of Argyll in the 12th century had bequethed most of his lands to his eldest son, who btw, was half Norse because of Somerleds marriage to Ragnhildis the daughter of the Norse King of the Hebrides and Mann. The Dougall clan derived its name of MacDougall (son of Dougall) from Somerleds Grandson. In 1307, Clan MacDougall was in control of the western Isles.
In late 1307 (late September) a few innocuous vessels showing up off the coast of Western Scotland flying the Templar banner would not have caused much concern to the Christian MacDougall Clan. It is doubtful if they could have learned of the problems in France and later England before the next summer. As I already mentioned, the only two Templars arrested in Scotland were not arrested until 1309, and then only by English authorities. A short distance from the Isle of Mull, lies the Ardchattan Priory, (where some of my relatives are from). This Priory was erected by the MacDougalls for the Valliscaulian Order of monks, who had connections to the Citercians (founders of the Templar Order in 1118). They would have certainly welcomed monks of the Templars and probably would have helped to supply them for their upcoming voyage.
I premise the galleys leaving for the Vikings "Vinland" would have departed by late spring 1308, still too early for the Lords of the Isle to know much of the events in France, remember the Western Isles had little to do with even Scotland at the time. Some of the creditable legends that discuss these events go on to storys of Templar memorial slabs with knights carved into the stone and Templars serving under Robert the Bruce at Bonnockburn. I certainly don't completely discount either of these storys, but also neither is important to my own theory. There is a wealth of information against the stone slabs being of Templar origin, but I do have some questions about them, for instance two of the carvings show a sword and a galley with a hanging rudder, which I have precieved as a then very modern design of Venetian origin, not in use by 13th century Scot sailors. But again as I mentioned not important my own premises.
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Re: Charing Cross

Postby n4n224ccw on Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:06 am

Dennis,

Yes, scanning electron microscope.

...Taking this one step further, a sample coming from the same spot as WHOI's sample and the Cleveland Beach sample are identical under a SEM...

I did forget to add in the above post that I possess low to medium quality SEM images of WHOI's samples. I used these images for my comparison.

One could easily draw a number of premature conclusions or take leaps of faith; however, we cannot prove beyond a doubt for all of the samples taken over all of the years to be from the same 'batch'. The evidence supporting coconut fibre is inconclusive; however, its doesn't look good for coconut either.

The tremendous excavations in Smith's Cove have obviously compromised the integrity of the site, including the spot which Henskee pointed out. These excavations could have easily allowed local material to contaminate the site.

Subsequent to my efforts noted above and now knowing what to look for, this same material (by look and feel) can be occasionally found in low quantities withing the debris line which delineates the high tide mark, both on and off Oak Island.

What started off as an easy project to find/identify coconut fibres which supposedly exist in great abundance, now turned into looking for a needle in hay stack. Without wasting anymore time or resources I moved on to more interesting things.

Until the day comes when fibres of unquestionable provenance can be taken from the island and identified through modern scientific methods as originating from a coconut palm, then they only exist as rumour, regardless of past show and tell.
The post Revolutionary history of Oak Island is a complex web of lies and partial truths to sort through.

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Re: Charing Cross

Postby wayward on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:58 am

n4n224ccw wrote:

Perhaps the Knights Templar deposited their treasure on your island west of Scotland and which still waits for a modern day sleuth to come along and to discover it.


Thanks for your input in this respect Paul, but, No, I still do think what I am looking for is in Nova Scotia, with Oak Island being one of a series of links.
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Re: Charing Cross

Postby wayward on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:13 am

wayward wrote:I could mention my purpose and interest in taking a better look at these drilled rocks on Oak Island. There was a 1958 article by a Bernard W. Powell, in the bulletin of the Massachusetts Archaeological Society, called "The Mooring Hole Problem in Long Island Sound". In this article Bernard discusses various rocks along the atlantic coasts with holes drilled in them. Some of these same type of holes along the coasts of Norway are dated to Viking times. He explains that the Norse would use these holes for temporary mooring of vessels, and that a person could drill such a hole in solid rock in less then 15 minutes. As an operative mason I know this to be true. Bernard was looking for evidence of Viking explorations further south than Newfoundland, which we pretty much do know happened. I, on the other hand have always premised a Templar presence in the area, and these Templars already following Viking routes would certainly have used Viking methods (I would assume). With the line of the stone triangle pointing directly to a location where the road now begins that leads to New Ross, I would be much interested if a type of mooring hole was ever discovered at that location.
btw, The island of Mull, Scotland does have a Norse connection, even to today, and also the legend of escaping Templar ships having landed there before sailing off to points unknown.---Bill



In light of the discussion on another thread of the drilled stones I thought I would bring this up again!
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Re: Charing Cross

Postby wayward on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:24 am

wayward wrote:This is what I have discovered so far on the origin of the coconut palm. It is not native to the Caribbean area, instead being brought there by Europeans in the early centuries of ocean crossing, (ie the 16th century and after). The Caribbean coconut palms are related to the Indian Ocean variety, and as such could only have come from that source. It was not until the 19th century that the coconut became a commercial crop in the Caribbean. Thus the dating of the coconut fibre from Oak Island, of the early 13th century suggests a human deposit from the Mediterranian area as the "Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution" had insinuated. I assume the reason for this premise is because of the constant shipping from the Indian Ocean area to the countries of the eastern Mediterranian (by sea and overland), and, the very early on, production of Coir from these fibres in India to aid as packing. Although the Norse did do some Mediterranian trading, by the 13th century this had all but ended, and they were unlikely to have been in the eastern end of the Mediterranian anyhow. We do know the Knights Templar traded back and forth constantly between Europe and Palestine. Although nobody seems to be able to say with any certainty that what was found was indeed coconut fibre, the dating itself is considered fairly accurate. It does seem to be the consensus of opinion, from messages I have recieved as well as discussion on this forum that the material was coconut fibre. I understand it was described as such very early on in the continuing mystery of Oak Island, when they (the Fibres) would have been in somewhat better condition. I am not proposing anything positive, and do not consider any of this proof of anything, but it does IMHO indicate some interesting possibilities.



The so-called Michigan Mob, part owners of Oak Island have just confirmed via the History Channel that the material found by them in Smiths Cove is indeed coconut fibre and they had it dated to between 1260 and 1400 AD, this confirms at least part of my theory.

Another part of my theory was confirmed, also via the History Channel some two weeks ago when geologist Scott Wolter excavated an area in Charing Cross (New Ross) Nova Scotia that I claimed held a Templar religious artifact as well as a large amount of gold. I had also claimed that it had been moved to another location by the end of the 16th century. Resulting from the excavation, Wolter, said that he felt there had once been something there but it had been moved. His team also detected gold but did not find any.
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Re: Charing Cross

Postby wayward on Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:56 am

n4n224ccw wrote:The WHOI data merely indicates the sample's age without the sample itself being positively identified, so it could be anything.

The possibility are the following:

a. Coconut palm related fibres nearly 900 years old,

There is much inconsistency and controversy surrounding the association of coconut fibre to Oak Island, never mind sugar cane.

This researcher thinks a much more straight forward answer exists, this being the legend is a bunch of bullshit and conjured to cover-up other activity.



Maybe a little over 650 years old. I think the Michigan group has settled much of the controversy concerning the coconut fibre, unless of course they are lying, which I seriously doubt.

Of course there are other possibilities such as Norse being here later then credited or Basque fishermen earlier then credited or even Samuel Champlain's group carrying 250 year old packing material and ropes.

Where are you n4n?---Bill W.
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